Mennoniteman
Well-Known Member
That sounds like me. I have many tricks like that. On the first day of gun season along the road in the woods with the bad roadhunting problem, hang a few orange vests 100 yds back in the woods.
Amazing
- Thread starter Bullwinkle
- Start date
dogghr
Well-Known Member
Just like the old forum, I go away for few days and all hell breaks loose. I've enjoyed the thread, gets a lot of people thinking deep. Good stuff.
I guess most everyone on this forum have always been good guys. Perhaps one day I will share the actual thinkings of a poacher. I may have a few things to share from my not so good days. Most people are way off base when they try to think like a poacher. Not in the mood to go there at this time. And people can change, thank goodness.
I guess most everyone on this forum have always been good guys. Perhaps one day I will share the actual thinkings of a poacher. I may have a few things to share from my not so good days. Most people are way off base when they try to think like a poacher. Not in the mood to go there at this time. And people can change, thank goodness.
Poachers and trespassers can be totally different entities and I never mentioned trespassing in my response about rifle deer taken during bow season...sitting in the woods with a bow and hearing that lone shot just after first gray light or last gray light and it doesn't take rocket science to put together what just happened...
On the locked gate deal...whoever said that was one smart cookie
On the locked gate deal...whoever said that was one smart cookie
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lakngolf
Well-Known Member
Or one smart OkiePoachers and trespassers can be totally different entities and I never mentioned trespassing in my response about rifle deer taken during bow season...sitting in the woods with a bow and hearing that loan shot just after first gray light or last gray light and it doesn't take rocket science to put together what just happened...
On the locked gate deal...whoever said that was one smart cookie
Chainsaw
Well-Known Member
Went to visit a guy, had called ahead and his gate was locked. I called him from the gate and he was inside and came out to let us in; said he only left the gate open when he wasn't there!
Poachers and trespassers can be totally different entities and I never mentioned trespassing in my response about rifle deer taken during bow season...sitting in the woods with a bow and hearing that lone shot just after first gray light or last gray light and it doesn't take rocket science to put together what just happened...
On the locked gate deal...whoever said that was one smart cookie
Bullwinkle
Active Member
If you do a fence I'd make sure you log first and take down the trees on perimeter that could fall
We had a huge storm come through last night and I lost two sides of my fence. 2nd time this year this has happened
We had a huge storm come through last night and I lost two sides of my fence. 2nd time this year this has happened
Mennoniteman
Well-Known Member
Sorry to hear about the fence. That logging the perimeter sounds like a good idea. Actually if someone wants great deer habitat clearcut the whole woods, just let all the oak trees stand. Ideally end up having at least 50% sunlight. Deer habitat should be thicker than hair on a dog, this provides food and cover and bedding area in one. The top ten best deer hunting spots I've ever seen were all also so thick you couldn't imagine how deer could even get through. An area like this with a two acre LC shooting plot smack in the middle is as good as it gets in deer hunting. And it sounds like that's what you are making with your fence?
Bullwinkle
Active Member
You understand my vision clearly.
Little more than a little effort and commitment, lots of doubters here but I really think 10 years from now I'll look back and smile. We'll see
Little more than a little effort and commitment, lots of doubters here but I really think 10 years from now I'll look back and smile. We'll see
Chainsaw
Well-Known Member
Careful now Mennoniteman! Lets not forget to leave the wild apple trees and wild pear trees standing as well, and leave the service berry trees to announce springtime and ten or so per acre of the best veneer timber trees per acre if we are mostly interested in brush(30 or so if more interested in timber with adequate brush). The veneer timber trees would then grow close to twice as fast diameter wise and bring in lots of habitat dollars, The white oaks could produce 7 (Yes SEVEN) times the acorns and also grow almost twice as fast diameter-wise while the red oaks may double in acorn production and also almost double tree diameter wise and the spring service berry bloom would be awesome (assuming all trees mentioned have a four sided release). And the wild apples and pears may double to ten or twenty fold their unreleased crop of apples. And still as you said, the resultant "deer habitat should be thicker than the hair on a dog". I know you know this stuff Mennoniteman but we must be careful not to lead new guys to jump in without looking at the whole picture first.
footnote;The oak results were documented in the book written by Perkey,Wilkins and Smith, US Forest Service, Parsons,West Virginia. The book is titled Crop Tree Management In Eastern Hardwoods NA-TP-19-93 This book has been instrumental in my development of habitat thinking.
Here is a link to the Crop Tree Management book. Crop Tree Management is a super tool for us deer habitat managers as well as timber managers. It lets us "have our cake and eat it too".
PDF http://u.osu.edu/beelab/files/2016/02/CropTreeMgmt-1h35gph.pdf
The apple increases are merely unscientific but conservative guesses based on what I have witnessed here and the service berries are just assumed.
Getting back to the original theme of this thread, the exclusion fence, I'd consider putting in the food plot right now surrounding the fence with something low maintenance like a fall planted clover mix, with chicory and rye added. Making the plot as wide as the tallest tree plus ten feet will significantly reduce falling tree damage and get a few generations of deer used to coming to feed there. And then when the fence is removed--WHAT A SETUP!
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Blizzard Ridge
Well-Known Member
I personally like the conversations that Bull generates when he posts something like this. I get it, some people hate on Bull due to his management practices and it isn't the way that well.....any of us would attack this problem/solution he has. We would start stacking up doe. In the same instance I do understand giving up on that tactic if it is turning the deer nocturnal because of all the commotion going on in the farm. Remember that some folks are deer hunter's first and land managers because they are deer hunter's. I personally do not have the problems that Bull sees in his part of the world but each of my farms does have at least two doe groups and at least 4 or 5 different bucks per 100 acres. The difference here is I have plenty of food in farm country with 100+ acres of Ag on each of my farms with 10's of thousands of acres of Ag surrounding it.
It is not uncommon for us to see 20-30 deer a sit on the majority of my farms. The difference is on some of these farms you can see a mile in every direction and when the deer hit the fields in the evening they come from every direction. I personally have our farms under a no doe kill order as the general herd in our county and state has deteriorated from back to back years of EHD ending a in 2014. Our state decided this was an opportunity to add more tags instead of cutting back on tags so the herd could withstand the disease. Based on my surveys I will begin killing doe again in 2018 if the neighbors don't do it for me. One of the nice things in my area is there are still a ton of meat hunter's running around so keeping the herd in check should never be a problem. I believe after logging these farms over the next few years these farms will have the ability to support large herds again as things looked in this part of Illinois back in 2009-2010 before EHD put the hurting on the herd.
Although we don't agree with Bull's tactics he at least brings up a good debate and I believe this thread will help the passerby get a grasp on tactics that will help them with similar problems.
It is not uncommon for us to see 20-30 deer a sit on the majority of my farms. The difference is on some of these farms you can see a mile in every direction and when the deer hit the fields in the evening they come from every direction. I personally have our farms under a no doe kill order as the general herd in our county and state has deteriorated from back to back years of EHD ending a in 2014. Our state decided this was an opportunity to add more tags instead of cutting back on tags so the herd could withstand the disease. Based on my surveys I will begin killing doe again in 2018 if the neighbors don't do it for me. One of the nice things in my area is there are still a ton of meat hunter's running around so keeping the herd in check should never be a problem. I believe after logging these farms over the next few years these farms will have the ability to support large herds again as things looked in this part of Illinois back in 2009-2010 before EHD put the hurting on the herd.
Although we don't agree with Bull's tactics he at least brings up a good debate and I believe this thread will help the passerby get a grasp on tactics that will help them with similar problems.
dogghr
Well-Known Member
Yea I was thinking when he said that I would only have 100 trees on 100 ac cut as most all my wood is white red or chestnut oak.
Good script on oaks you gave. Was about to finish with just such a topic on my Acorn thread. I'll just paste yours and save me the typing.
Sorry I'll just have to disagree with comments made that this fencing idea is good technique for management. Regardless of browse those deer numbers will desimate that growth in short order regardless when it is opened. Like curing cancer with a bandaid. And if true these deer numbers then predators will fix the problem in time and some of these very hunters in the area will be whining and screaming at the DNR for alowing predators to bring population in ck. Or die off from malnutrition in severe winter. Either are ugly sights.
Concurrent doe hunt thru all seasons are minimum with buck number limitations will get people to shoot does.
Seen that stubborn transition in my state to take numbers down from the once 100/ sq mile to manageable levels. Amazing how most gun hunters sitting on a frigid Nov morn waiting for their one buck limit suddenly begin to look at doe meat differently.
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Reagan
Member
I am amazed that some of you actually like to read Bull's stuff. But hey, different strokes for different folks.
It was stated by Mr Winkle himself that the fence is put up long enough to grow the browse above the reach of the deer. So what is the goal here? Grow browse for deer or grow timber? If the fence stays up long enough for the browse to get beyond a deer's reach, it sounds like timber is the goal and not browse.
How is excluding a browse area from deer helping the herd?
How is growing trees beyond the reach of deer helping the herd?
I don't expect a logical answer from Mr contradiction. I don't think he is capable. But I would love to hear what the Bullwinkle fan club thinks.
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It was stated by Mr Winkle himself that the fence is put up long enough to grow the browse above the reach of the deer. So what is the goal here? Grow browse for deer or grow timber? If the fence stays up long enough for the browse to get beyond a deer's reach, it sounds like timber is the goal and not browse.
How is excluding a browse area from deer helping the herd?
How is growing trees beyond the reach of deer helping the herd?
I don't expect a logical answer from Mr contradiction. I don't think he is capable. But I would love to hear what the Bullwinkle fan club thinks.
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Mennoniteman
Well-Known Member
Do you know the difference between an Amish framing crew and an Amish trim carpenter crew? The trim carpenters' use smaller chainsaws. (laugh now) I like your handle, as a barnbuilder a STIHL chainsaw is my favorite tool. (ha! i just started another dustup right there) And they are an essential deer management tool as well. Thanks for fine-tuning my rough outline of a 50% clearcutting plan, I agree with your post 100%. And since you suggested it i will add some detail to this cutting business. Everyone's woods has a different makeup, around here we have very little wild apples and pears. I always let wild cherry stand. Poplar is our money tree, but useless for deer, that's a cutting decision to be made although I will never cut one. I always wack gum, beech, hickory, maple, black birch, locust unless they are veneer grade. I like a few blocks of white pines for turkey roosting. The smaller trees and shrubs that deer like for browsing come back so fast when sunlight gets in that I don't worry to much about cutting them or not. When properly cutting through a typical timber tract that's generally overrun with a lot of less than desirable tree species due to decades of improper logging practices I almost always end up with the maximum enhancement of the timber value and at the same time the perfect amount of cutting for perfect deer habitat. It's amazing how these two totally different goals will often coincide. By the way perfect deer habitat isn't perfect turkey habitat, turkeys don't like it that thick. I have enough land that I leave some open oak ridges for the turkeys. I will generally try to do the cutting and open timber in strips. And do a "fence" around the perimeter of your property by cutting off all the trees at ground level and dropping them all in the same direction parallel to your property line. This keeps the deer from wandering off of your great habitat. Wow, I just love cutting timber. I would rather cut down trees than eat. I have made a resolution to cut down one tree every day for the rest of my career. But my wife doesn't like when I cut timber. Can't understand why, hey I only broke my back once cutting. (and once while building stuff) I guess I should be locked up in a safe place. Did I mention please put safety first if you go into the woods, logging is the most dangerous occupation there is, don't try dropping big trees if you have no experience.
Chainsaw
Well-Known Member
Thank you on the oak script--glad to save you the typing.
You make an excellent point dogghr about the deer going thru the 1 acre of browse quickly; I had totally forgotten about that when I was thinking what a great bedding spot it would make up against a food plot. The reason I see the fence as a possible good management technique under the circumstances is that I consider it to be for now a safe place, almost a bank to store and insure diversified plants keep growing on the property. Yes it would take a few fenced in areas throughout the property to retain seed trees/bushes for when the time/deer population resets itself. I also have the impression that the fence will get some oak regeneration underway that is not happening outside of the fence.
We had the deer overpopulation experience here as did you and there was no way to shoot enough deer legally until the entire area realized what was needed. By then it was too late. Our plant diversification was already weakened. The over population will likely eventually lead to where nearly everyone thinks it will but the time that one property owner can right it without a law change or natural adjustment is past.
I went on one of my Cornell MFO program woods walks the other day on a property about 45 minutes from here. This property had every kind of plant growing that I can remember and 95% of it had not been browsed. It was a beautiful, beautiful sight. Of course the owner would like to have more deer. You can bet that my suggestions for his property will be very cautious about raising the population too much and more in line with creating more predictable deer movements than the property currently has.
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Bullwinkle
Active Member
Just to be clear. I'm not doing this for browse. I am doing it to long term get some more oaks on the farm and short term a high stem count, thick bedding area.
My property lacks thick areas and thermal bedding. Working on problem areas with this since I'll plant norways in the fence
My property lacks thick areas and thermal bedding. Working on problem areas with this since I'll plant norways in the fence
dogghr
Well-Known Member
Back to paper you quoted. The group that did study in Parsons WV did much of that research at the Fernow Experimental Forests near there. It abuts the Otter Creek Wilderness Area where I happen to be hiking/backpacking at this time. Offed out of storms and playing soft at lodge as we speak. Now Otter Creek area I've hunted and camped since a kid. Normal deer numbers. Predators of everykind. Understory almost too thick to walk thru. I've even quoted in past early explorers to the area. No browse lines no overpopulation great bucks. Timber population of great mixture of mature hardwood and typical thermal tolerant softwood on ridges. Undergrowth a combination of plant flora due to limited browse/no overbrowse. A very balanced plant and animal community of all ages and types.
Now over to the State Park I'm now hiding in. 75deer /sq mile. In the 6000 ac I covered by foot and car is completely covered by Bulls high class browse line. Luckily they are trying to reduce the herd and should improve.
My point. The fence won't work nor will give protection to species adequately. That will lend to destruction of habitat that might never recover and the landscape will be permanently altered.
I'm sorry, but some have seen the mistakes of past years and to condone poor animal and habitat management to say nothing just shouldn't occur. We have a responsibility to ourselves and generations to come. Sorry. Back to my tent and I'll shut up.
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dogghr
Well-Known Member
IkemanTx
Member
Poachers and trespassers can be totally different entities and I never mentioned trespassing in my response about rifle deer taken during bow season...sitting in the woods with a bow and hearing that lone shot just after first gray light or last gray light and it doesn't take rocket science to put together what just happened...
On the locked gate deal...whoever said that was one smart cookie
We have an active pig and predator hunting culture down here in Texas. I can sit an observation sit in early June and hear shots at the crack of dawn. We still have a HUGE poaching problem, but I can't make assumptions about out of gun season shooting.
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