A Soil Test

I actually rolled the dice and planted several weeks earlier this year than I normally do due to the hurricane coming through. We've had cooler than normal temps and I knew I was gonna get a guaranteed 2-3 inches of rain. The cereal grains are just popping up out of the thatch now. This pic was actually yesterday morning. It's jumped a good bit from this just overnight. Starting to see a tinge of green across the field. All I did was drag my seed into the duff with a piece of chain link fence this time.

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I don’t feel like I’m gambling too bad. In any other year, I’d be looking at planting in the next week or two. I’ll keep an eye out for army worms. So far so good. The field is turning green this morning. What I’d really like to see is a follow up shower here soon. My field can run for 2-3 weeks before it goes dry but I’d rather not have to go that long. It helps though when you have seedlings doing this…These were just the first two I dug up randomly, The one on the left has already sent a root down 4-5 inches.

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Dr Grant Woods says he uses no synthetic fertilizer. I've been experimenting with that the last couple of years using covers for nutrients. I'm beginning to believe I need to give fields a 'boost' though I don't want to give up the faith. I have added chicken litter and love the results but rain and field conditions this year didn't allow. Certainly running a cart across a fall field is easy. What are your thoughts re/ getting 'acceptable' nutrients from covers without added synthetic fertilizer? I'm growing crops for wild life not as a commercial farmer...thankfully.
 
You can "mine" nutrients from deeper in the soil with plants with deep roots. Legumes can add nitrogen, but I don't think any cover crop will add Phosphorus or Potassium if needed. You will have to add something bring those numbers up. Once the numbers are acceptable maybe they can be maintained because we are not removing crops from the field.

I would be interested to hear arguments for different plants adding P & K. I'm definitely not an expert in this area.
 
Dr Grant Woods says he uses no synthetic fertilizer. I've been experimenting with that the last couple of years using covers for nutrients. I'm beginning to believe I need to give fields a 'boost' though I don't want to give up the faith. I have added chicken litter and love the results but rain and field conditions this year didn't allow. Certainly running a cart across a fall field is easy. What are your thoughts re/ getting 'acceptable' nutrients from covers without added synthetic fertilizer? I'm growing crops for wild life not as a commercial farmer...thankfully.

I don’t think most folks are gonna be able to just jump right into that kind of situation like he’s promoting. I thought the same thing too at one time but it just doesn’t work quite like the theory. Here’s the problem I’ve had. You can’t use covers for their benefits until you can grow a vibrant, heavily producing crop of whatever that cover may be. That’s dang near impossible when your dealing with a field that’s 1) already suffering from degraded conditions…..and 2) not big enough to keep up with browsing pressure……You’re likely gonna have to supplement those nutrients in the beginning instead of going cold turkey.

Here’s another hang up I’m seeing……..Organic nitrogen being supplied to the plants seems dependent on soil temps being high enough that our soil “factory” is not grinding to a halt. If I do not add some synthetic N right now then my fields will start showing N deficiency mid winter. When spring gets here though and temps begin to warm…..boom, she goes green again nearly overnight. I’m pretty sure that’s the soil factory cranking back up again as temps hit a certain threshold. I don’t know how you’re gonna get around supplying N to the grains in mid-winter without supplementing with some synthetic N if soil temps are too cold for soil activity…..Dec-Feb is when I need my fields producing the best.

Something else in the beginning to as far as adding synthetic N……If you’re producing huge crops of grass biomass like I’ve been doing in order to grow my OM%......then you’re gonna have to balance that with the proper amount of N that will be tied up through decomposition.

Right now I'm holding P&K really well. The P seems like its just there now but I'm still having to add a little K once a year just to keep levels up to optimum.... but its only slowly falling over time and additional applications are really light.


Just some initial thoughts…….
 
Dr Grant Woods says he uses no synthetic fertilizer. I've been experimenting with that the last couple of years using covers for nutrients. I'm beginning to believe I need to give fields a 'boost' though I don't want to give up the faith. I have added chicken litter and love the results but rain and field conditions this year didn't allow. Certainly running a cart across a fall field is easy. What are your thoughts re/ getting 'acceptable' nutrients from covers without added synthetic fertilizer? I'm growing crops for wild life not as a commercial farmer...thankfully.
At the beginning, he was adding nutrients through fertilizer and Antler Dirt. Of course, with his new plots that he just made, he is using no synthetic fert, but is using the plants and the rotation of them to mine nutrients, he will need to add something eventually. I have rotated my plots for 2 years, this is my third, and haven't added lime or any fert but will be this year. I had a pH of 6.46, high P and low K. My seed supplier doesn't carry a fert with 0 P, so I bought 15-5-10 fert to do what I needed. Hopefully the plants will take up and use what is needed. If I can find someone to plant or let me borrow a planter, I will be planting Real World beans in the spring. I just hope that 2 acres is enough once the deer find it. Luckily, I don't have a big population using the property, but that could change if beans are involved.
 
I'm not the one to discuss this but I'll start a little dialogue. Remember we are doing food plots not working crop profit margins.
As everyone know, soil should be a world of various natural elements, micro and macro organisms, and stages of growth and decomposition . Thus the drive to produce more organic intense soil to promote those natural factors which in turn produce an environment conducive to plant growth by allowing naturally developing factors.

Improving organic matter improves soil structure, infiltration and water holding capacity, and improved cation exchange, and more efficient long term storage of nutrients. The active faction tends to harbor sugars and proteins. Micro organisms process the sugars quickly and to lesser degree the proteins. Byproduct of these actions, gives forth N, K, and P within the soil making it available for uptake by new growth/your plantings. Plant material that is succulent, such as clovers, give up their sugars and protein quickly and leaving behind little organic matter. Whereas fibrous or woody plants that the microorganism choose next, release nutrients much more slowly, even tying them up at times, thus promoting more humus in the organic layer. These latter produce a more stable organic matter, leading to better soil physical condition, nutrient holding capacity, and improved cation exchange. The microorganisms produce compounds that help glue the soils together yet allowing it to remain porous.

Organic matter improves slowly and can take a decade to improve 1%. N is most readily soluble hence easily leached out of the soil. Others, such as P and K can be at good levels yet bound . Now how are they released for use??

My fav guys the fungi, mycorrhizae , produce a water soluble protein. Most all plant roots develop a relationship with these guys using the hyphae to take in water and nutrients to help feed a plant, including elements such as phosphorus that seldom leaches from the soil but is often bound up. In return the fungus uptake sugars produced by the plant.
So as we improve soil tilth, water infiltration and moisture holding compacity is improved. The fungi also have the capacity to take up phosphorus for the plant. The mycorrhizae essentially increase the amount of surface area of the root for uptake.

So remember, as Crimson has so amazingly shown thru two forums over a number of years, crop rotation and choices, not only improves the soil, but its ability to improve uptake of naturally occurring elements by a complex pattern of events. Choose your rotations wisely, forget the monocultures, and save yourself some time and money in additives. Thanks Crimson and back to you.
 
I don't think it's got to be too complex. I wouldn't consider lime a synthetic (not that anyone has), so I'd put on whatever you need. From there, you may need to add some leachables to get going (nitrogen, sulfur, boron). Once you get it up to par and produce that big first crop, I'd think you could go a lot longer with a diverse mix. Imagine it's an actual mining operation. You need team of species to do their specific job.

Buckwheat to go get phosphorus
Grains to produce carbon
Legumes to produce nitrogen to feed the carbon recyclers
Brassicas to punch holes and hold nutrients short term
Deer to speed up the nutrient cycle
and so on and so on.

Each plant species does something a little different and they each go down and pull up their own cocktail and drop it on/near the soil surface for the next crop.

Build a team.
 
Great post dogghr.....I would argue one point though and that's where you said it would take a decade to raise the soil by 1% OM.....I don't think that's true. I've went from <1% to just over 4% since I've started these experiments in roughly five years. Now, something that should be noted when we talk about this subject is that we're not talking about every bit of soil in the field. I've gone from not having an organic layer of soil at all...to having about 8 inches of dark topsoil in the top soil horizon. It's in that soil layer that the OM% has increased so dramatically. If you dig down below that and test.....I'm quite sure you're gonna find very little. The only thing getting OM down that deep are the roots of deep rooted plants. Restoring OM to the subsoil may indeed take much more time. Then again, plant selection will likely play a huge role in that. From what I've observed from the natural process during summer is that nature restores that top layer first and then brings in the other species once that initial band-aid of OM is across the surface. It brings in fine fibrous rooted grasses first to make a mat and stabilize the surface.....
 
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Cutman,

I nominate dogghr to bring back and lead dgallow's "egyptian wheat.." thread

bill
I really need to go back to school if I'm going to continue reading these complex threads! Great stuff and I love reading it but pretty deep (pun)!
 
CnC, what did you plant and at what rates? Especially interested in your cereal grain rates. Have you experimented with that much?
 
Cutman,

I nominate dogghr to bring back and lead dgallow's "egyptian wheat.." thread

bill
Sorry I'm not worthy. I just read anything I can get my hands on concerning plant and animal management from this forum to university studies that are so easily accessed anymore online. Purdue, TN, VT, WVU, PS, AL all produce excellent studies to read. In addition,many of the DNRs despite the beating they take also publish great info again from the states of the schools just listed.
But what pisses the crap out of me, is the burning of all the info on the old forum by QDMA idiots. There was a decade+ worth of material from some very qualified posters so easy to access and a lot I learned came from there in a short time.
As a side note, Crimson took a beating when he first started this thread there, including questioning by me as how to get the boys and girls/positive and negative ions together in the soil for the best benefits.
Great post dogghr.....I would argue one point though and that's where you said it would take a decade to raise the soil by 1% OM.....I don't think that's true. I've went from <1% to just over 4% since I've started these experiments in roughly five years. Now, something that should be noted when we talk about this subject is that we're not talking about every bit of soil in the field. I've gone from not having an organic layer of soil at all...to having about 8 inches of dark topsoil in the top soil horizon. It's in that soil layer that the OM% has increased so dramatically. If you dig down below that and test.....I'm quite sure you're gonna find very little. The only thing getting OM down that deep are the roots of deep rooted plants. Restoring OM to the subsoil may indeed take much more time. Then again, plant selection will likely play a huge role in that. From what I've observed from the natural process during summer is that nature restores that top layer first and then brings in the other species once that initial band-aid of OM is across the surface. It brings in fine fibrous rooted grasses first to make a mat and stabilize the surface.....
Funny Crimson as when I typed that I remembered what you had achieved. I agree with what you say. The study average does vary and it can be much shorter. You should show daily your pic of before and after hole you dug. Pretty amazing.
 
Funny Crimson as when I typed that I remembered what you had achieved. I agree with what you say. The study average does vary and it can be much shorter. You should show daily your pic of before and after hole you dug. Pretty amazing.
I actually saved that pic to my phone, so when I try to explain to people the throw and mow method, I pull that pic up to show them what you did in 5-6 years with your "dirt".
 
CnC, what did you plant and at what rates? Especially interested in your cereal grain rates. Have you experimented with that much?

As far as cereal grains....I plant mostly cereal rye but this year I mixed in a little bit of wheat and oats too. I also added yuchi and crimson clover to my mix along with just a small amount of purple top turnips....That gives me grass, broadleaf, legume......I use 100 lbs/ac as a base rate for most of my plantings. The heavier used areas got thickened up this year to a little heavier rate than that. Places like where deer often enter the field or areas that may see more water runoff during heavy rains. Clover rates are around 10-15 lbs/ac total and turnips and roughly 1 lb/ac.
 
Sorry I'm not worthy. I just read anything I can get my hands on concerning plant and animal management from this forum to university studies that are so easily accessed anymore online. Purdue, TN, VT, WVU, PS, AL all produce excellent studies to read. In addition,many of the DNRs despite the beating they take also publish great info again from the states of the schools just listed.

But what pisses the crap out of me, is the burning of all the info on the old forum by QDMA idiots. There was a decade+ worth of material from some very qualified posters so easy to access and a lot I learned came from there in a short time.

As a side note, Crimson took a beating when he first started this thread there, including questioning by me as how to get the boys and girls/positive and negative ions together in the soil for the best benefits

I'm still sore about what QDMA did as well.

As far as the beating....I guess I'm just a gluten for punishment lol!.....You should see some of the responses I've gotten on my home state site Aldeer......Wheeeeew! :D
 
I'm drifting off the reservation a bit here for this threadIMG_4428.JPG but seed arrived today and thought this is as good a place to post as any.This is the core of my strategy to improve soil and promote a healthy deer herd at the same time. Elbon rye, wheat, Durana, red clover, yuchi arrow leaf clover, berseem, radishes, turnips, chicory,....and a couple bags of oyster shells for the chickens.

No question in my mind that you get more bang for the buck from fall planting and they have more value than summer plantings...both for soil and deer. { Of course I plant summer as well}
 
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