Mennoniteman
Well-Known Member
We still have bees, but very few honeybees. Do you still see honeybees?
Regenerative Plotting
- Thread starter MarkDarvin
- Start date
BenAllgood
Well-Known Member
I took some notes on it below:
- Herbicides are biocides (get rid of biological life)
- Gabe Brown was contacted by researchers with radio-collared mature bucks to find out why they were travelling 50 miles to non-GMO corn in a corn rich landscape
- creating a better soil ecosystem on a property makes your property an island that draws deer for miles
- soil is a fully functioning ecosystem, not just a plant growing medium that you dump synthetics into.
- bio-mimicry - farming in nature's image - observe and work with nature -
- healthy soils are similar to humans with healthy gut biology
- maintain living roots and lots of plant species for symbiosis
- use feeder or spreader to hyperfocus deer in a one or two acre area and move it around for trampling, saliva, and waste for animal integration
- over 95 percent of life on land is below the surface
- principles of soil health, sixth is context. limiting disturbance (chemical or physical), armor the soil (plant residue and plants), offer species diversity all in one area, living roots year round, animal integration
- it's a process. it doesn't happen over night. you could plant a large number of different species in a blend, and your soil may only kick out a few of them. It's because your soil is telling you about what it needs or lacks. It could be carbon:nitrogen ratio.
- sometimes, we plant so many legumes, that we are creating the perfect environment for grasses or unwanted plants. Once there's a large number 17- 20 something species on the surface, the biology will start to click
- when we use synthetic fertilizers, that takes the jobs away from the biology in the soil.
- It could take a few years to get on track once pulling out herbicides, pesticides, and synthetic fertilizers and following the principles of soil health.
- Plants fix dirt - quote from Dr. Rick Haney
- relay intercropping or pasture cropping aids in "biological priming" by planting temperature specific germinating plants in spring, summer, and fall with crimper and drill
- some species don't crimp well, but it's ok
- good soil looks like cake and spongy under the boot
- with so many different types of species in the blend, 1/2 to 3/4 inch depth is good
- with the 3 rotations of plantings, it primes the biologic pump faster, but you won't need the spring if the fall species carry over well
- if you don't have a roller crimper and drill, you can still follow the principles of soil health with throw and mow, it just may not be as efficient time wise
- for clover plots that may have alot of bare spots coming out of winter, plant full rate combos of rye, wheat, triticale, oats, to fill those spots in to take advantage of the nitrogen instead of weeds that will soon grow there.
- Culturally deal with weeds by competing with them. look at weeds and see when they germinate instead of when you see them taking over.
- grassy, sod areas may be ok to use some herbicide to get started. Or, plant a biennial into it when it's dormant to get ahead of the grass. Even light discing can be used to do this to get started.
dogghr
Well-Known Member
Wow thanks Ben. What a summary of what many have been trying to teach beginning in the days of the old forum. Perhaps I’ll start showing pics of my ragged looking plots again.
It can be depressing ,aggravating, frustrating to force oneself to accept, identify , and strategize when working foodplots toward these goals speaking from experience. The tiller and sprayer is always sitting there begging that they can do the job better. Takes belief and willpower. Pretty rewarding as time passes.
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It can be depressing ,aggravating, frustrating to force oneself to accept, identify , and strategize when working foodplots toward these goals speaking from experience. The tiller and sprayer is always sitting there begging that they can do the job better. Takes belief and willpower. Pretty rewarding as time passes.
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MarkDarvin
Well-Known Member
I don't know that I could identify them, but if I had to guess, I don't have them.
weekender21
Well-Known Member
I contacted Snavely to inquire what he charges for land consulting. He's in PA and my place is in NC so obviously part of the cost is travel. "2020 rates for consulting in NC run roughly $5k....that's us working together for a few years to accomplish your goals and objectives."
That's probably not unreasonable considering the long term commitment. However, it is half the cost of an RTP no till drill. I only have 2.5 acres in plots and doubt I'll ever have more than ~5 acres due to my steep terrain. I can't imagine the consult would be worth it for so few acres. But...he does more than just regenerative food plotting so maybe it would be a good investment.
That's probably not unreasonable considering the long term commitment. However, it is half the cost of an RTP no till drill. I only have 2.5 acres in plots and doubt I'll ever have more than ~5 acres due to my steep terrain. I can't imagine the consult would be worth it for so few acres. But...he does more than just regenerative food plotting so maybe it would be a good investment.
catscratch
Well-Known Member
We've still got honeybees, even know where a wild hive or two is located.
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KSQ2
Well-Known Member
Took a while, but I read through this thread. I haven’t taken the time to open any of the links, I’m just relying on the summaries of all of you. I’ve seen some of the problems I’ve faced in keeping our perineal clover plots going, mainly Johnson grass. Our biggest plot is on property we do not own and the owner hays through our clover in the summer, so there I have to keep the seeding in of cereals, especially in the spring to a minimum. In other places though, I’m thinking about dropping in some barley in the spring. What is the earliest barley can be expected to germinate in our zone? I’d like to broadcast it while the clover is still early in coming out of dormancy, the deer will have eaten way down at that time. Also, in a couple of our places, we rotate brassicas, we have to work those up in the spring to keep them from going to seed. We have typically planted an annual clover with oats, only to be worked up and rotated to cereal grain and perineal clover the following fall, per the advice of Paul Knox. Would we be better served planting barley with the annual clover?
Jon
Active Member
I think barley would be a good option for nitrogen scavenging. Its rarely used in the north from what I have experienced but I could see it as a viable option for spring planting, then crimping for a mid term crop if planted early and possible sowing a final fall crop. Its typically a 60 day crop, so timing of crimping needs to be planned, if you are going to introduce other crops at the tail end of summer. I'm trying to figure out on my own a semblance of cocktails to replicate what I think is appropriate as I have been crimping the past few years and really focus on variety of species and have a winter hardy plant that I can use for crimping or shading into spring, which is normally rye.
KSQ2
Well-Known Member
I just did a search for a roller crimper, I didn't even know what they were. Holy cow! I won't ever be getting one of those. Talk about a joke at those prices. Same with cultipackers, but I managed to find one of those tucked away in a field and the landowner sold it to me for next to nothing years ago. I doubt I'd be lucky enough for that to happen again with a crimper.
Jon
Active Member
I bought an old roller from a farmer years ago that sat after I made a cultipacker, then I bought a tractor and as a result bought a used three point cultipacker... the older roller that had sat for several years got a face lift and I made my own crimper. simple method of having a friend weld on some fins that I found that would still function with the basic frame. I think he charged me $150. You can do the same thing with a roller or cultipacker and not have the fins, and lay down the crop, which wont necessary crimp or create multi steam breaks. The crimper is designed to break steams, with a goal of laying material flat and having enough damage to the stem so it doesn't continue to grow. You could roll and spray after you sow your crop... just be prepared if you don't spray that you may have some resurgence of crop. Its really not complicated.. when you do this with multispecies plots you need to be thinking ahead and plan when plants reach a point of senesce or flowering and how to focus on rotations that are complementary.
weekender21
Well-Known Member
Barley has the gears in my brain housing group turning. My fall planted WR wasn’t thick enough last spring/summer to keep weed competition down. I wonder if a heavy application of Barley directly into my fall crop in the spring followed by a mid summer throw/mow of Buckwheat wrapped up with a September throw mow of WR, annual clover and radishes would do the trick.
I’m not in a rush to use chemicals or fertilizer.
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I’m not in a rush to use chemicals or fertilizer.
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catscratch
Well-Known Member
I
As said above you can probably modify your cultipacker to work as a crimper. I can't find used crimpers locally, never even seen used in the ag setting. I've made due with what I can find. My current favorite "crimper" is a skid steer with steel tracks. Wouldn't want to do a large plot with it but it works great for smaller ones. I've also had luck with dragging a loader bucket around.
KSQ2
Well-Known Member
Are you talking about putting the loader bucket down with the frontend loader and going in reverse? That could work well, it would definitely break the stems; and I could always use a little more practice at backing straight...
dogghr
Well-Known Member
Before we got all fancy we used a lot of methods. My first plot was done pulling a bedspring and yard sale lawn roller. My first throw and mow done 10 years ago, spread seed, and ran Jeep repeatedly over field. And have used the tractor bucket as said, going forward, not backward, that would be ugly for me.Are you talking about putting the loader bucket down with the frontend loader and going in reverse? That could work well, it would definitely break the stems; and I could always use a little more practice at backing straight...
Honestly I've done seeding with crimping and just letting thatch stand. Really see little difference. The main thing is don't get aggravated early on, as it can take a few years to get the soil and thatch at proper levels to make any no till operation work. Good luck.
catscratch
Well-Known Member
Forwards OR backwards works... experiment. I'm a lot like dogghr in that I've found standing thatch works as well as anything when seeding. I've done quite a few side-by-side comparisons and get pretty much equal results no matter what other method is used.Are you talking about putting the loader bucket down with the frontend loader and going in reverse? That could work well, it would definitely break the stems; and I could always use a little more practice at backing straight...
Killing vegetation is a different matter. I don't have a crimper. Mowing forbs in a timely matter works for a kill. Grasses are not as easy. I haven't figured out how to get a good kill on grasses without herbicide yet. The best I've done to control grasses is to out-compete them with something I can kill (ie - plant heavy with cereal grains).
MarkDarvin
Well-Known Member
I've had a packer for three years now I think, still haven't used it. Forgot to get something with which to pull it. Never end a sentence in a preposition.
However, planets align, I may have one this year. What I'd like to see someone try is to lay down their crop in two directions, and then come back and hit it a second time from the other two. First press goes north/south, second one goes east/west. If you can even get those plants leaning at a 45 with the first pass, you may have a chance at getting them to go under 3 or 4 of those pressure points on the second. That outta get it.
If you have stuff that stands back up completely straight, you may not be so lucky.
KSQ2
Well-Known Member
I’m betting serecia lezpedezia (sp?) would stand up straight and laugh at that attempt. I’ve been wrong many times before though.
I visited with my farmer father-in-law, he gets a kick out of my food plotting questions. He said a crimper/roller is an old farming tool, and if I keep my eyes open I could prolly pick one up for next to nothing, much like finding our cultipacker years ago. He sold his 25’ cultipacker to a scrap dealer at a consignment auction for a $100 15 years ago; no telling what he could have gotten for it now on Craigslist. Deer plotters have changed everything these days.
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BenAllgood
Well-Known Member
Ted Kornecki with the USDA in Auburn, AL has done testing with another method of termination that he's finding to be just as effective as roller crimping. He's using a device attached to the exhaust of a tractor to direct heat directly onto the length of the cover crop plant. https://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publication/?seqNo115=356738
catscratch
Well-Known Member
I'm struggling with serecia. Cattle don't eat it and nothing out competes it. I haven't found a reason it establishes (like mulleins is a early succession plant that likes disturbed shallow soils... it goes away on it's own if you build the soil some). I have had some luck with thick grass that doesn't get grazed combined with broadleaf killer. Can't use gly because it make the ground bare and serecia comes back stronger. Can't graze it because it shoots up faster than the grass. I'm wondering if a solid stand of switch grass along the waterways and creeks would keep it at bay?
