Throw N Mow thread...

catscratch · Jul 11, 2019

Conversely here are two more plots that didn't have much thatch that were planted on the same day. It might be deceiving as I efenced the other plot and not this these. Almost all the green you see is grass. Beans didn't do well!

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KSQ2 · Jul 11, 2019

The first plot looks great Cat!!

catscratch · Jul 11, 2019

KSQ2 said:
The first plot looks great Cat!!

Thanks! I can't wait for the beans to canopy and for the straw to finish breaking down (it's already decomposed quite a bit, which I take as an indicator of soil health). I think it's going to look pretty good by fall.

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shawn cox · Jul 12, 2019

I have never had a plot fail because of too much thatch. I have had them fail because of lack of moisture. I have done a lot of TnM with great success. I have even grown lablab and winter peas that way. with the right rain you can even grow seeds straight on bare ground with no thatch over it but you really have to have a week of rain everyday to keep it moist to get it rooted in the ground. I have done that on fresh clearcuts before. But the most successful TnM plots have a good thatch on top. It doesn't matter how you get it down. Before I had equipment I sprayed and two weeks later broadcast my seed and just ran over it in my truck until it was all knocked down and it worked very well. I like to view TnM like the napkin test for testing germination of seed where you put the seeds in a wet paper towel and put it on the windowsill to see how viable they are. If viable they will germinate right there in the napkin because it is moist. It is the same way with TnM. If you get a good thatch down to keep the seed moist until it can find the dirt you are golden.

Brow_Tine · Jul 15, 2019

Speaking of thatch.......I have a great stand of buckwheat this year that is about ready to goto seed and I am trying to decide what I want to do. I am getting ready to plant oats in it for the fall. My question is...If I broadcast the oats into the standing buckwheat and then roll it (500lb DIY roller - not crimping) will the buckwheat terminate and provide good thatch for the oats? Part of me says to save the oats for next year and just let the buckwheat goto seed, mow it and then lightly disc it in and try for a 2 crop. Frost will kill the 2nd crop and leave that area bare food wise. I have sweet corn and sugar beets planted in the same plot but different sections.

MarkDarvin · Jul 15, 2019

Brow_Tine said:
Speaking of thatch.......I have a great stand of buckwheat this year that is about ready to goto seed and I am trying to decide what I want to do. I am getting ready to plant oats in it for the fall. My question is...If I broadcast the oats into the standing buckwheat and then roll it (500lb DIY roller - not crimping) will the buckwheat terminate and provide good thatch for the oats? Part of me says to save the oats for next year and just let the buckwheat goto seed, mow it and then lightly disc it in and try for a 2 crop. Frost will kill the 2nd crop and leave that area bare food wise. I have sweet corn and sugar beets planted in the same plot but different sections.

View attachment 16394

I'd take an oat plot over a buckwheat plot come november. Might be too early for oats though.

TX-Aggie · Jul 16, 2019

Brow_Tine said:
Speaking of thatch.......I have a great stand of buckwheat this year that is about ready to goto seed and I am trying to decide what I want to do. I am getting ready to plant oats in it for the fall. My question is...If I broadcast the oats into the standing buckwheat and then roll it (500lb DIY roller - not crimping) will the buckwheat terminate and provide good thatch for the oats? Part of me says to save the oats for next year and just let the buckwheat goto seed, mow it and then lightly disc it in and try for a 2 crop. Frost will kill the 2nd crop and leave that area bare food wise. I have sweet corn and sugar beets planted in the same plot but different sections.

View attachment 16394

What is your estimation between buckwheat going to seed vs your oats planting date? Is there enough time to mow the buckwheat when it goes to seed for a second crop, then mow/disc/crimp the second crop after spreading your oat seeds? I am still new with food plotting, even newer with thrown and mow, along with not really knowing planting dates for up north, but I would agree with MarkDarvin on wanting oats in November over buckwheat.

MarkDarvin · Jul 16, 2019

TX-Aggie said:
What is your estimation between buckwheat going to seed vs your oats planting date? Is there enough time to mow the buckwheat when it goes to seed for a second crop, then mow/disc/crimp the second crop after spreading your oat seeds? I am still new with food plotting, even newer with thrown and mow, along with not really knowing planting dates for up north, but I would agree with MarkDarvin on wanting oats in November over buckwheat.

This is gonna be tundra advice, but I'd work backwards from my first frost date. I'd want my oats down about 60 days before first frost. First frost isn't gonna kill your oats, but it's a good indicator of when they're gonna slow down and be what they're gonna be. I'm not sure how to handle buckwheat. I only ever grew it in quantity once, and the turkeys wiped out what I had.

One idea would be to take it out with a mower now, before it goes to seed. I'd try throwing a full rate of sunflower in it before mowing to keep the soil and critters occupied. Good chance the deer will take care of those sunflowers anyway, and then you could/should still have a clean slate when it comes time to put oats down.

catscratch · Jul 16, 2019

I'd let nature do it for me. Nothing wrong with grasses and natural forbs growing up to be your thatch. The stuff that comes up naturally is going to be early successional type plants anyway (which is important as they are usually natural soil builders, mine minerals, and are great OM producers through roots). We don't have to plant everything everytime. Research quail disc strips... deer love natural stuff too.

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dtabor · Jul 22, 2019

So I planned my seed purchase with the intent of just nuking everything, seeding then cutting/rolling the dead stuff. I hadnt had much clover growth or anything up until now. I went out to work on things a bit this past weekend and now clover has come on great. In my area it doesnt last very far into the bow season, and goes dormant so Id like to plant some annuals to be ready for that time. I hate to hit my clover with gly now that its coming in great. Can I just spread oats/peas/radish into the standing clover and expect it to do anything without having dead thatch?

Brow_Tine · Jul 22, 2019

dtabor said:
So I planned my seed purchase with the intent of just nuking everything, seeding then cutting/rolling the dead stuff. I hadnt had much clover growth or anything up until now. I went out to work on things a bit this past weekend and now clover has come on great. In my area it doesnt last very far into the bow season, and goes dormant so Id like to plant some annuals to be ready for that time. I hate to hit my clover with gly now that its coming in great. Can I just spread oats/peas/radish into the standing clover and expect it to do anything without having dead thatch?

As long as you get good seed to soil contact and some rain you should be good. Rolling it will help press the seed into the ground.

Brow_Tine · Jul 22, 2019

TX-Aggie said:
What is your estimation between buckwheat going to seed vs your oats planting date? Is there enough time to mow the buckwheat when it goes to seed for a second crop, then mow/disc/crimp the second crop after spreading your oat seeds? I am still new with food plotting, even newer with thrown and mow, along with not really knowing planting dates for up north, but I would agree with MarkDarvin on wanting oats in November over buckwheat.

Historically the first frost hits us around Sept 25. I decided to do some strip planting for the oats. Gonna disc in the buckwheat for a 2nd crop and then terminate some good strips of it to put the oats in sometime late Aug

catscratch · Jul 22, 2019

After doing Throw-n-Mow for many many many years and trying lots of different combinations, I am now 100% convinced that the thatch can be left standing. I've mowed, I've re-mowed to even the thatch, I've rolled, I've crimped, I've done everything I can think of to put thatch down. I've also left it standing, many times side by side with thatch that is down. Every time it grows just as well in the standing thatch as it does in the layered thatch.

In my mind it makes sense that a layer of thatch creates a greenhouse affect that helps retain moisture and heat. Time and time again I've been proven this isn't necessary. I guess nature has developed seed that doesn't need a mower or plow to grow. Imagine that!

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pinetag · Jul 22, 2019

catscratch said:
After doing Throw-n-Mow for many many many years and trying lots of different combinations, I am now 100% convinced that the thatch can be left standing. I've mowed, I've re-mowed to even the thatch, I've rolled, I've crimped, I've done everything I can think of to put thatch down. I've also left it standing, many times side by side with thatch that is down. Every time it grows just as well in the standing thatch as it does in the layered thatch.

In my mind it makes sense that a layer of thatch creates a greenhouse affect that helps retain moisture and heat. Time and time again I've been proven this isn't necessary. I guess nature has developed seed that doesn't need a mower or plow to grow. Imagine that!

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Thanks for this info catscratch! I was thinking about whether or not this would work in my creek plot where I've got some standing oats/rye that is just now starting to fall over on its own, so now I've got confirmation. I threw some store bought beans down a couple weeks back and I plan to seed rye, oats, and clover right into the standing vegetation in late Aug. I hope it turns out as good as yours!

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Deadeye · Aug 9, 2019

I did some over-seeding on my plots this time. I thought of discing it up and dragging it, but Honestly last year all that did was wake up weed seeds in the ground to the point they took over this year.

So i did something different. I mowed first, then over seeded. My thoughts on it were: Seeds get planted by nature and grow all the time by just falling to where they lay. No discing. No dragging. Just fall and then grow.

Thought maybe I should of throwed first then mowed, but already mowed before the thought to just toss it hit me. We'll see what happens. Can't be much worse than last year.

TreeDaddy · Aug 9, 2019

catscratch said:
After doing Throw-n-Mow for many many many years and trying lots of different combinations, I am now 100% convinced that the thatch can be left standing. I've mowed, I've re-mowed to even the thatch, I've rolled, I've crimped, I've done everything I can think of to put thatch down. I've also left it standing, many times side by side with thatch that is down. Every time it grows just as well in the standing thatch as it does in the layered thatch.

In my mind it makes sense that a layer of thatch creates a greenhouse affect that helps retain moisture and heat. Time and time again I've been proven this isn't necessary. I guess nature has developed seed that doesn't need a mower or plow to grow. Imagine that!

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this real world experience is what makes this forum helpful

thanks, Catscratch

bill

dogghr · Aug 13, 2019

No rain in last 5 wks until today. Threw out brassica see about 3-4 wks ago. Sprayed gly thanks to some thistle. Didn’t cut or roll. You want brassica to look too thin as they grow as they need the space for good bulb and leaf growth. Should be prime by mid Oct.
You can see residual WR growing in. And Ck out the clover pic. That WC IS 10 years old and has been sprayed over the years 3 times w heavy gly. Stuff is tough.

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KSQ2 · Aug 20, 2019

I put in a brassica plot a couple days ago with a new seeder, and I made the mistake of mixing forage radish seed with rape and turnips in the seeder. I'm hoping it turns out, but I'm afraid the first half of the plot is going to be seeded way too heavy.

Fire_Medic_14 · Aug 21, 2019

Finally got the opportunity from landowner to put some plots in. My largest is an acre. I found the real world wildlife seed on sale and I bought enough to make the acre mix of the deadly dozen. Here is my thoughts, your opinions would be appreciated.

The area is an overgrown hayfield that’s been sprayed once. Will go back this weekend to spot spray. I want to broadcast the harvest salad (grain seed) mix into the standing dead vegetation, then mow it down on top. Afterward, broadcast the plot topper over top. Should I go back over with brush hog, mowing high and beat seed in or just roll. Thanks

Jason Broom · Sep 13, 2019

I'm not sure what "plot topper" is, but the general idea is to broadcast into the standing dead (dying) stuff and then mow. I firmly believe that following up with a cultipacker helps shake/press more seed into contact with the soil. I am doing some very specific testing this fall to either confirm or invalidate that assertion. Hopefully I'll have some pictures for ya'll in the coming weeks.

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