Recreating a Deer Woods

Send my deer back, you don’t want his kind down there. I hope you enjoyed the warm weather, real winter starts this weekend. Let me know when you want to start cutting some trees down. I have been working out everyday since New Years and I am anxious to start doing some habitat work. Disgusted to see how far I let myself slide. A chainsaw is calling my name.
 
Thank you for the encouragement Farmhunter, I'm sure that some will join in and help improve the hunting for all and some may not. I'm putting together data to show what is happening here to help convince them that it can happen on their grounds as well. While my property is larger than most it is still very vulnerable to neighbors as there are many, many neighbors and almost all hunt and many shoot as they please. It will take me a little longer to get an initial meeting going as planned but I want to have as solid data as I can going in.

I'm working this week on defining the population numbers and buck to doe ratio along with other data. Numbers are being crunched from about 40,000 trail cam pictures taken this past fall and it is a larger job than I had anticipated. Trail Cams were set at three pictures per sighting with two cams set in mini food plots(less than 1/2 acre) and 29 cams set on trails in the woods with a a couple of those set on actual deer beds. Note-started the season with sixteen trail cams and added 15 more in mid season. Printed buck pictures of each sighting of the top seven bucks on the property that made it thru seasons end accompanied me to Florida where I got to studying them regarding day versus night time activity. The numbers were very encouraging to us and a great testament that the low pressure hunting so many on this forum practice does really help to encourage deer movement in daylight hours.

Trail cams set on about 350 acres took pictures of 33 different bucks thought to be 2 1/2 years old or older. Total pictures of the top seven shooter deer that survived the season was 109 separate sightings so the average of the seven top end bucks had his picture taken in 15.57 separate sightings. There were three pic taken on each sighting but we count the three as just one. The total number of pictures taken during the night time (dark to daylight) was 31 so 28.44% of buck movement caught on camera was nocturnal. The remaining 78 sightings (71.55%) were daytime taken buck pictures.

Additionally two separate sightings of deer breeding behavior were recorded during daytime and zero during night time. If we assume at this point that there were 66 does on the property that got bred three times each (3 x 66=198 breedings) and the cameras caught 2 or 1.01% of the breeding then they also caught only 1.01% of the deer activity on the property.

Notes-I did not calculate day versus night nor even total separate sightings for other than the top seven deer because I'm focusing on the behavior of the top seven deer. Some deer spooked and likely avoided those particular camera setups after that; some deer didn't seem to mind the cams. The two deer during breeding activities didn't even notice the cams or at least didn't react to them in any way. Generally I'm surmising that most deer avoided the cams after their first picture experience rather than completely ignoring them.

Here are a couple of pics of an older deer that didn't make the top seven cut. He reminds me of a Tugg Hill deer that Chummer shot a couple of years ago and may very well have come from "The Hill".

View attachment 14407 View attachment 14408

Best of luck to you Chipdasqrrl in upping the game to 3 1/2. It sure isn't easy and making the jump for me to let 2 1/2 go took a long while. I can understand why those with a lot less opportunities than I may never get there but it is ok because it is beginning to work here anyhow. Apparently once they hit 3 1/2 a higher percentage of them make it beyond that or so it appears so far to be that way.

Dave, those two pix remind me of every picture of immature bull moose I’ve ever seen. Huge body, disproportionately small antlers. Caused by lots of great food I’m sure !

Rusty
 
Dave, those two pix remind me of every picture of immature bull moose I’ve ever seen. Huge body, disproportionately small antlers. Caused by lots of great food I’m sure !

Rusty
I hope so Rusty; there definitely has been a lot of food available since the 2014 winter. This is only the second deer I have ever heard of, seen pictures of or personally saw looking so large with such small antlers. The first one was the one that Chummer took on his Tugg Hill property. I do not recall the weight of his but 200 lbs plus dressed would not have surprised me. His was a huge animal. Maybe this one will bloom in the next year or two antler wise.
 
Send my deer back, you don’t want his kind down there. I hope you enjoyed the warm weather, real winter starts this weekend. Let me know when you want to start cutting some trees down. I have been working out everyday since New Years and I am anxious to start doing some habitat work. Disgusted to see how far I let myself slide. A chainsaw is calling my name.

The warm and sunny Florida weather was a real treat, I really enjoyed it but I'm glad to be back home, minus four degrees,with blowing snow to boot but home is home. Thanks for the offer to help cut trees; we tackle it anytime now when the weather hits twenty degrees or better and when you are off. We will just be hinging poplar trees so that part is not a lot of exercise; however snowshoeing to them carrying our saws and extra gas will burn a lot of calories for sure.

Note; I can use the exercise as well.Florida was flat, flat so daily biking and lots and lots of walking beaches did not burn a lot of calories. Kayaking around the flooded areas bordering Stick Marsh in the wind though was another matter exercise wise. Regrettably I'm as bad a bass fisherman as I am a kayak-er so I didn't lower the swamp any by catching bass. Hooked a few but wasn't able to land any.

Have been slugging away on making sense of the almost 40,000 trail cam pics to arrive at a reasonably accurate population estimate,buck to doe ratio, recruitment rate, retention of young bucks rate and as importantly rate of luring disbursing bucks to this property. It is a bit of work to say the least but I'll try it this once to see what it can tell me. At below zero temps outside compiling the camera data is a very tolerable way to spend the day.
 
Last edited:
Finally The task of sorting thru almost 40,000 trail camp pics to determine the hunting season population on this property, the buck to doe ratio, the fawn recruitment rate,the yearling buck outgoing dispersal rate and the yearling buck highest possible incoming yearling dispersal's from other properties,the amount of bucks in the 3 1/2 age and up that used the property and where they used it most is completed. Honestly it was a daunting task. In this state it is illegal to bait so the seven to ten day camera survey process defined in QDMA literature does not apply here. Actually I didn't know how to do the cam survey based on work of others so just went with my gut feel and left the cams out as close to bedding areas as possible for the entire season plus two weeks. It is my turn to cook tonight (venison canned in barbecue sauce) so I plan to share my favorite four pic series in this post and then an extraordinary breeding pic series tomorrow and then the stats of in season population, daytime pics versus night time and all that along with what good all of this new found deer activity knowledge might be to us in hunting this property in future years the following night. So here is my favorite four pic series taken from the last cam pull which came from 31 cams that had not been checked in month..
IMG_0609a.jpg
The season had ended a week go and the rut was still happening and this running does picture caught my attention. And sure enough my best assumptions were realized. The big ten made it yet another year. We were blessed with a couple of hundred pics of Big Ten but knowing BT beat the odds and made another season made this series of pics special.
IMG_0612a.jpg
As if to model himself for us here he sniffed in the doe aromas and turned and twisted and gave us many views of himself before he disappeared from whence he came. We have seen him in person many times and we have so far chosen to say one more year.

IMG_0614a.jpg

IMG_0616a.jpg

Even if we do not meet with the big ten again next fall as we hope to, letting him walk for the last three years has been worth it ten times over. We realize that in parts of the whitetail range a deer this size may not be special but man oh man HE SURE IS SPECIAL HERE! So he is here by awarded the Pic Series Of The Year Award out of the almost 40,000 trail cam pics of 2018. Stay warm my friend!

Tomorrow if the snow doesn't bury our telephone pole internet lines too bad I'll post up some extraordinary deer breeding pictures.
 
Last edited:
Stay warm Dave. Looks like your are in the bullseye. Someone is getting 4 feet, hope it isn’t you...or me!
 
He's a beauty Dave and quite a task that you are working on. Are you guys under the polar vortex? -18 here this am.

G
 
He's a beauty Dave and quite a task that you are working on. Are you guys under the polar vortex? -18 here this am.

G
George you are in a much colder temp than us. We are at around plus 3 degrees but as Chummer said we are dead center in the bullseye for lake effect snow. The wind is howling off the lake and probably that is bringing the warmer lake temps to us and that is why the temps are staying above zero. We are at maybe ten inches so far but hopefully when the wind switches a little this afternoon we might be only in the fringe on the snow band and thus could avoid a two to four feet scenario. A huge warm up is scheduled for Tuesday; While a winter warm up is great for the deer, a fast warmup causes flooding. As the streams thaw and rise they back up when trying to empty into the frozen ponds, wetlands and bays surrounding Lake Ontario. Hopefully it won't be an issue.

Digging out won't be bad Farmhunter. Since we are retired we just do it at own pace and we have great equipment for getting it done. For people with jobs it is soooo different; they can't take a relaxed attitude about it. I pushed the snowbanks back yesterday when it stopped snowing so there will be room to push this new snow. Our driveway is over 1/4 mile but as you know it is not the long part that takes time but rather our parking area and truck turnaround area that must be maintained so we can get propane deliveries. Didn't have to worry about that when we heated with wood but then again I don't miss going outside to fill the stove everyday either.

Edit/update Feb. 3--We ended up with only 15 to 18 inches which was quite manageable. Some locales very close to here had some more as usual.

Mass for sure Rusty, mass measurements look to currently be 4 1/4 to 5 inches and maybe next year a little more; between him a couple of others that made it we are looking forward to shed hunting this spring. We have never found his sheds before but we didn't know his preferred travel ways as well as we think we do now.
 
Last edited:
It would be great if we had unlocked the secret to where deer do their actual breeding but it was just dumb luck to capture the series below.
It has been reduced it to 10 pictures so it would fit in one post.IMG_0283a.jpg IMG_0285b.jpg IMG_0286 (2).JPG IMG_0290 (2).JPG IMG_0291 (2).JPG IMG_0301 (2).JPG IMG_0302 (2).JPG IMG_0303 (2).JPG IMG_0304 (2).JPG IMG_0307 (2).JPG
It was all over by 8:33 am. The resizing on the later pics lost the date and times.
 
Last edited:
And almost two weeks later the same buck chased another doe by there. He was not running crazy like they do in early season she was just a few yards ahead of him. Suddenly he stops and gives us this cool photo;
IMG_1557a.jpg
 
True deer porn right there. I wonder if it would be beneficial to somehow “trademark” those photos. Seems like some publication might be interested in them. Nice work Chainsaw.


Sent from my iPad using Deer Hunter Forum
 
Thanks Guys. I thought about attempting to copyright them Rusty before posting the pics but as learned from Lick Creek it is all about our sharing our deer experiences with each other and if some publication benefits as well that is just fine. Seeing the pics of nature working on my property was the ultimate reward.
 
It proves that all bucks get to breed at some point. You had many bigger bucks but he still landed a lady.
 
Last edited:
This post lays out the methodology, facts, and figures from running a camera survey on my property this past hunting season. The cam survey started out with 16 trail cameras put out between Oct. 9 thru Oct 13. They were checked in the beginning too much,started out with mostly daytime activity and quickly went to more night time activity. In one camera site which was close to a neighbor property the pressure of the neighbors hunting turned the deer mostly nocturnal in three to five days or so. I couldn't do anything about what neighbors on their property were doing but I could change my behavior and did by ceasing checking cams in early November unless I was walking by one of course. Starting 11/13, fifteen additional trail cams were added which brought the total #of cams to 31(two Reconyx and 29 Browning cameras-25-Strike Force and four black flash models). The cameras were mostly set at 3 pics per detection except for a couple of cameras that looked like special spots with the deer breeding sequence being one of those. Locations for the cameras were mostly high impact trails within the bedding areas with some in the woods behind food plots. A few were actually pointing at the beds and two were in the woods food plots of less than 1/4 acre each. A couple were also placed on rubbed trees that were absolutely shredded. Cameras were not checked from 11/15 thru their pull dates which were December 19 and 20. Six Plotwatchers were placed out for the season, all on food plots but those cards have not been reviewed yet so are not apart of this study or post.

The total # of pictures taken with the 31 trail cams was just shy of 40,000. Whittling them down to only one picture for each deer sighting (some deer hung around and got their pictures taken twenty times in a row and all were whittled down to one) the total # of whittled down pics was 2,671 with 1828 being daytime pics and 843 being nighttime pics. To determine the # of different deer in the pictures we started with the bucks 2 1/2 years old and up.The answer was 33. The #of 1 1/2 year old bucks were then determined to be 12. I discussed those numbers with Steve Heerkens, the state wildlife biologist for this area, Paul Curtis from Cornell that conducts many camera surveys and is currently doing a study of deer at Fort Drum which is only twenty-five miles from here and also with John Hammer who started the NY Yates County deer management co-operative and does surveys in his area of NY. After hearing their experiences I decided to not include those bucks that gave me only three pics or less total because they were likely travelers that did not spend much time on this property. Thus after adjusting for that and subtracting the two bucks harvested last season, I went with the total # of bucks heavily using the property to be 30 with 8 being 1 1/2 years old and 22 being 2 1/2 and up. This is the most important number in a survey as everything else is keyed off of that. The 30 bucks had their pics taken in 637 events or 21.23 pic events per buck.

Doe events came in at 1288. Dividing that by 21.23 (assuming doe pics were taken at the same rate per doe as bucks) gave us 60 does regularly using the property.

Fawn with buck and doe fawn combined came in at 1789 fawns divided by 21.23 gave us the number of fawns at 84. Dividing fawns by does 84 by 60 equaled 1.4 gave us our fawn recruitment rate. I asked Paul about the recruitment rate number being high and he agreed it was high but was reasonably in line with his study at Fort Drum.

And of course the buck to doe ratio at 30 bucks to 60 does is exactly 1 to 2.

The total deer on the property using it regularly came out to 30 bucks, 60 does and 84 fawns or 174 deer. This is many, many times what the average for the area is per square mile and this is only 605 acres, 35 short of a square mile. Another call to Steve and when I told him the shape of the property at about 1/2 mile wide by two miles long the numbers made sense because the property would likely contain deer from parts of the five square miles abutting it. The habitat and hunting pressure on the neighboring properties is poor and high pressured compared to this property so the high amount of deer spending time on this property made sense even though it was many times that of the area average.

Will this camera study help me better manage the deer population,help grow more older bucks, point out potential weak spots in the habitat and deer management efforts, and show us how to better hunt this property and when to hunt this property? The answer is a resounding yes. It took many days to sort thru all of the pictures and determine the number of different bucks as well as the number of different sightings. It was even like work at times but I'm glad to have done it and do plan to do it again next year.

In states where baiting is allowed current thinking is that camera surveys can be accomplished in 7 to 10 days max. In states like NY where no baiting or feeding is allowed current thinking is it takes a minimum of 6 to 7 weeks to conduct the survey. It is not a perfect science for sure but it is another tool in the bucket to provide intel to help us manage our properties and the deer using them.

And are deer afraid of the cams?
Absolutely sometimes and absolutely not at others. Here is a pic of Big Ten. He was walking into the camera zone and stopped just on the edge of the detection area.That was it. He evidently backed up before five seconds were up so he wouldn't be flashed again. In other instances he acted like a willing model.
IMG_0297a.jpg
This was a nighttime spot only.It is located about 50 yards off of our lawn. We see literally hundreds of deer there every year day and night but we have never seen him there other than on camera.

Oh and those cams placed on the absolutely shredded tree rubs produced the absolute least amount of buck or doe activity. Never would have guessed that.

I want to thank John, Paul and Steve for sharing their knowledge and experience with me and taking the time to discuss my trail cam survey with me. You each helped me more than you will ever know. And as a side note Paul is monitoring young buck dispersal from Fort Drum so if anyone gets a pic of a radio collared deer be sure to let Paul know thru the study website even if you get the picture 150 miles away, it could still be from Fort Drum. The site is www.fortdrumdeer.org
 
Last edited:
Back
Top