Upstate Obsession

Lak, we are many hours from Niagra. NY is deceptively large.

With my season over, I thought it time to post an update. Bow season was a lot of fun. I passed a number of 31/2 and 41/2 bucks because I was routinely seeing our target bucks. I had a 60yd shot on our best buck when hunting a redneck blind. Had I been standing, I’d taken the shot. Shooting while sitting impacts my form enough that it makes shots at that range a little more risky (I’ve taken that shot sitting on larger animals with perfect success). I was also hesitant because I’d had multiple encounters with a nice bear in this spot and didn’t want to disturb things with less than a perfect opportunity. My big regret with bowseason was not at least taking a doe to reduce numbers.

Rifle season was fun. I took a week off and was joined by my brother from Illinois and my youngest son who has been out of the country the last couple years. We had cold weather and about a foot of snow. Bigger bucks were locked down, and as has been our experience, I knew they’d make an appearance if we were patient. We saw mature bucks everyday...but no good opportunities. We were also seeing 25-35 deer per sit.

A couple days in, I was sitting over our largest complex with my brother. We could tell a good buck was chasing a doe in the far woodline. He was acting like a cutting horse trying to keep her back in the brush. She slipped out into the plot and he walked to rub a licking branch on his hind legs. I recognized the buck as one of my shooters. When he came down from rubbing, he stood still at 342yds. When my brother said he wasn’t comfortable at that range, I squeezed off a shot. He mule kicked and dissapeared.

By brother and I made our way to where he was standing and quickly found him(he went 30yds). He was too heavy or a couple of office jockeys to throw in a SxS so I used the FEL to get him off the mountain.

I’ve included a picture of him pre-rut. I figure he’d lost more than 50lbs.

I have gong on this woodline because most of our big bucks enter the plots here. I shoot at that distance all summer and my 270wsm with my handloads shoot apple sized groups at this range. Shooting at range simply requires preparation and knowing your equipment. Having lived and hunted out west for 20 years, I’d note this shot was about average distance I’ve killed deer, elk and antelope at.

My son had bad luck. He’d get out of his stand, and we’d have pics of a big deer walking by while he was gone. He grew frustrated and was developing a really bad cold. Given the cool weather and a very poor acorn crop, we had deer in the plots every hour of the day. I’d sit with him at times, but only younger bucks were seen. I plead with him to stick it out because I knew the mature bucks would hit the plots mid day just to check out the does. He was slow getting ready for an afternoon sit so I went without him (I had a doe management permit). 10 minutes after getting in the blind, our #1 buck entered the plots to check out does. He was in front of me at 150yds for 20 minutes. I was texting my son to hustle. Of course, the buck chased a doe into the woods 2 minutes before my son arrived. We spent a pleasurable afternoon where he passed a couple smaller 8pts.

On his last day, I plead with him to sit all day. He’d decided he wasn’t going to shoot unless it was 31/2 or older. On cue, this buck chased a doe into the plots and my son filled his tag. I was pleased.

Lessons learned this year? With the poor acorn crop, we have too many deer even with 16+ acres in plots. Another lesson was when snows come early, 8+ acres of clover/chicory, alfalfa, triticale and rye are largely ignored when brassicas/corn readily available. As a result, our brassicas and corn were creamed. If my stands permitted it, I’d plant more corn. However, the turkeys have gone nuts (one plot had had 67 at one time) and too much of the grain is lost to the damned birds. I’ve figured out how to add another acre of brassicas by cutting back on so much clover/alfalfa. I’m also determined to plant far more rutabagas/Winfred than the typical LC mix. The Rutabaga/Winfred has 2-3 times the tonnage. This may well be too much food during an average year.

Does....too many does! I’ve got a problem and no present satisfactory way to fix it. I’m simply not comfortable letting others hunt the property when I’m not there to hand hold/help them track. Most guys lack the shooting skills to shoot at other than wood ranges, and are unable to track a deer that doesn’t drop at the shot.... Even though I need the numbers thinned, I’m outraged when poor shooting causes suffering or lost deer.

And the good news? Cameras suggest we’ll have 5 or more 51/2+ year old bucks next year and approximately the same number of 41/2 year olds. Perhaps the best news is our browse continues to be in excellent shape. Between the plots and 24 acres of hinge cuts, browse on our entire place has been transformed. I’m excited for the future.

I’m also getting ready for my annual bowhunting trip to TX with my brothers and our boys—-the boar are just plain fun to hunt and TX genetics fill the big antler needs that my upstate property is incapable of fulfilling.

I had been looking forward to an update from you for a while, and as always I enjoyed the read. Glad you and your son scored on some nice bucks.
Personally I cannot believe the season is almost gone for me, it seemed to have gone by in a blink on an eye. The early and unexpected snow through the entire season off, but it reminded me of my younger days when we had snow every opening day.

Thanks CTM. My neighbor who helps look after our place also shot a 21/2 year old 8pt that was chasing a doe.

The snow this year definitely changed the dynamics. It makes the deer far more visible but I believe also makes them more nervous. I believe we’d have seen more of our target bucks without the snow.

Why don’t you come up the hill in the spring and we can test the legs on some black rifles. If you want to come a lil earlier, we can even try to call in a song dog or two.

Great update. Amazing to see what you have put together in the mountains. Most will never understand, I tip my hat.

Thanks Chummer. When I see the quality of deer on this forum I just shake my head. I’ve often wondered what my efforts would produce in areas with better soil and easier winters. When I bought the place, I had a consultant come visit. He observed the variety of plants, browse, and cover and made a number of recommendations we’ve tried to follow. He asked to see trail cam photos looking at age and antler growth. I asked if he thought it was likely to ever grow a 150” buck. He explained that putting genetics aside (ours are mixed), we need to view plants and browse as nothing more than a nutrient delivery system and there were real limits on what could be grown with our soils. He further explained that even if our plots were optimal, 60% of the deer’s diet was still browse. He conclude he thought the best our soils would produce were deer approaching 140 and we ought to judge quality my age and body size. We’ve now taken a couple of large bodied 51/2 year olds that won’t top 120.” I do have hope we’ll do better because we have had a mid 130s deer on our place. Northern mountains are a challege when compared to other areas.....but I’m cool with that. I am Obsessed....

We are fighting an uphill battle but we have a friend in a similar situation that shot a 149 this year so it is possible, definitely not the norm but possible. I have a 5.5yo on my wall that might crack 100. Our trophy’s are defined by different criteria. I think in mild winter years you will start to see 140’s and up. The problem is how often do we get those. If there is a correct road you are on it.

i read a study out of Mississippi a couple years back. They compared antler growth on deer near the river with those far removed (deer near the river had larger antlers). The original assumption was that it was driven by genetics. In fact, it was merely the superior soil nutrients from river sediments. They trapped a number of river and non river deer and supplemented their diets so they had equal access to nutrients. After 2 generations, the non-river deer caught up to the river deer in antler growth. The 2 generation thing fascinated me. Apparently, it takes time for the benefits of nutrition to fully manifest. I’m hoping I can see it happen on our place.

I found a link to the MSU study:
https://extension.msstate.edu/sites/default/files/publications/publications/p3013.pdf

Summary:
It Runs in the Family
First and foremost, you are what you eat—but you’re also what your mother and her mother ate! Our results clearly show that deer in the LCP region of Mississippi are not genetically doomed to have smaller bodies and antlers; they are simply a product of their environment. Once nutrition was improved, LCP bucks started to display their genetic potential—but it took time. We feel confident that what we found was an epigenetic effect

The link to the MSU study was excellent Tom. It certainly explained a lot as to how difficult it has been to finally begin to realize some better antler growth on some of the deer in this area. That is definitely a great motivator to keep improving our soil, upping available quality food and keeping the population in line. I believe you are on the right track with this.

love both those last two bucks - the stubby tine one is awesome - congratulations to you both!
Have enjoyed all your updates. Nice to see it working!

Made it upstate for a quick weekend. Winter has been colder than usual, but we’ve so far avoided heavy snow. Saw 25+ deer in the triticale/alfalfa enjoying some green eats (snow has melted on south facing plots). There are still a fair amount of rutabagas/turnips in the plots, and the deer have yet to begin eating the the Winfred stalks. Thrilled the browse remains in excellent shape which is important with the 18” forecast for this week. Although it can be cold, I love my walks in the dead of winter. The mountain has such a serene feeling this time of year.

I’ve seen this song dog a couple times....and it’s a pretty one. Interestingly, it’s a loner whereas most of my yote pics are groups of 2-4.

Deer seem to be wintering well enough. Things should be downhill from here if we get typical late winter weather.

Your deer look to be in terrific condition Tom. Weather would have to change drastically to change that. I think you are in for a great survival rate for this winter. Are you thinking that antlers are already dropped or should we wait a couple of more weeks before searching?
That blonde looking coyote looks a little too confident for my liking.

They’ve dropped on older bucks. I do have a couple fawns that are skinnier than the rest..... Heavy snows could still take a toll with them for sure. Crossing my fingers and waiting for warmer weather. I’m excited to get back at the habitat/plot thing. So many chores....so little time.

The weather through the end of February looks stable with no heavy snows or extreme cold predicted. March is always up in the air but you can get some warm days in March. I think we’re in for one of the easiest winters in a while. Will be good for the population. Deer and humans

Buckly said:

The weather through the end of February looks stable with no heavy snows or extreme cold predicted. March is always up in the air but you can get some warm days in March. I think we’re in for one of the easiest winters in a while. Will be good for the population. Deer and humans

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We have been between 1-2’ since November. On the snow scale that is about as mild as it gets. Still 2 months to go unless spring comes early. Hoping a good percent of the fawns make it. Elk you are looking good, just keep the nor’easters away.

I was counting my good fortune a year ago this time and 18” of forecast snow turned into 40.” Of course, the snow crusted over and the song dogs had a field day..... Still, it has been a fairly easy winter. I’m ready for the warming!