Bulidng soil/step #1

Where is Crimson and Gallow when you need them? I don't think anyone had documented as well as Crimson in word and pic of creating organic matter in deep sand on his land in a fairly short period of time. In addition, Gallow spent most his time trying to inspire the need for moisture maintenance year round. Both accomplished such with no tillage and growing a variety of native and planted flora that allowed the soil to transition while improving water filtration.
As said reducing or eliminating tillage which disrupts the harmony of the soil microbes is key. This in conjunction with using plants, including so-called weeds which mine nutrients from the soil and replenishing its soil requirements by way of their inherent food forming abilities and also the addition of the decay processes as the plants are mowed or terminated and new growth established to continue the cycle.
 
As others have said, rye is exactly what you’re looking for, but for soil building that would have to be planted in the fall. That being said, I would go with oats and mix red clover in to add some nitrogen. Spring planted rye would die out in the summer which is why I’d do oats, and red clover establishes quicker than white which is important for a spring clover planting.
Then next fall I’d plant rye, and add white clover because the red clover usually doesn’t last more than a couple years
This is my spring oats planting from last summer
7cbe1ad61b2194dc592abec78c4a58f8.jpg


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I would dig down a foot or so and see if it's all sand or just washed or blown in there.My place is alot sand and there was sand hills that blew in there over the last hundred years so it went to NWSG.I think winter wheat does as good as anything.Is pond big enough for irrigation in case it's as dry as this year.If it's solid sand it will take alot of topsoil and compost to make a big difference but it will help.I cleaned out a pond and dumped 60 tons on maybe a 1/4 acre plot that had pretty light soil and normally if as dry as this year everything would have died but where the dirt was kept up with browse
 
If it were me I think I'd throw radish and buckwheat in there and maybe add some clover. Fairly inexpensive and those things grow just fine almost anywhere---radish might not be world record worthy but they decompose in the ground if not eaten. Throw in some winter rye in the fall.
 
I've planted some trees in that area and it stays mostly sand past 2' deep. I am going to plan the throw and mow style approach after a lot of reading. Makes a lot of sense and works well with the equipment that I have right there.

Lots of good advice, thanks a bunch guys:)
 
dogghr said:
Where is Crimson and Gallow when you need them? I don't think anyone had documented as well as Crimson in word and pic of creating organic matter in deep sand on his land in a fairly short period of time. In addition, Gallow spent most his time trying to inspire the need for moisture maintenance year round. Both accomplished such with no tillage and growing a variety of native and planted flora that allowed the soil to transition while improving water filtration.
As said reducing or eliminating tillage which disrupts the harmony of the soil microbes is key. This in conjunction with using plants, including so-called weeds which mine nutrients from the soil and replenishing its soil requirements by way of their inherent food forming abilities and also the addition of the decay processes as the plants are mowed or terminated and new growth established to continue the cycle.
Click to expand...
Joke: Crimson may still be celebrating winning the national title or resting his dog. I have been wondering where he has been. I have something that i want to bounce off him.
 
Bigeight said:
I want to take the plunge in building some sandy soil on the side of my parents pond for their wildlife viewing pleasure. I have tried some fall plots in that area with minimal returns, because I half arse'd it.

Only thing I have tried in the past to build soils has been buckwheat. I really wasn't left with anything to plow down when it was time to do so.

My goal is to eventually get this area into a grain type rotation. Oats, Rye, radishes, and red clover in the fall with red clover/rye left in the spring/summer for grazing, turkey strutting, then tilling under and repeating.

What is the best step for NEXT year's spring planting for a plow down to start the build?

Thanks
Click to expand...
How's your deer numbers there, Mark?
Seems like what most of the advice above is to plant something that's deer food. Sometimes we need to prioritize our goals and it can be tough to try to develop OM when the deer eat the crap out of what we're planting. Take radish for example. Radish is a great OM builder, but if your deer are destroying it as it grows, then you won't end up with much of any tuber development and you'll have little increase in OM.
You might want to consider a mixture planting with the main variety being something that's not deer food.

I highly recommend going to the Green Cover Seed website and check-out their SmartMix calculator. It's extremely useful, even if it only gets you to think outside the box. Seems like us habitat guys get locked into thinking more about feeding and attracting deer and less about soil health. Care for your soil and your plots will be better and your herd will thank you.

For those of you who haven't tried SmartMix calculator, it allows you to enter your info of zip code, planting method, 3 goals, acreage, etc and then it allows you to choose among many seed varieties and gives a rating on how effective each variety would be for your stated goals. It also shows varieties that are not recommended for your goals. It then shows the results of your choices. It also shows cost per acre and also shipping cost to your zip code. There's even more info that shows, like frost dates, growing season length, and some other stuff. WARNING...playing with SmartMix is almost addictive:eek::)


Here's the 1st step in SmartMix. I just plugged-in some various info in order to show an example...
fullsizeoutput_4adf.jpeg

I did a sample mix and here's the screen shot of their recommendations.
You can see the 3 goals I chose on the right side of the chart. The scale at the top shows the different aspects of the varieties chosen. Those scales will readjust as you plug-in or remove different varieties.
Here are the results that the calculator came up with. The varieties that I chose (on the left) are picked from a drop-down chart. There will be dozens of varieties to choose from and each will show a rating...in this case, Sunn Hemp is rated 86.5 out of 100 toward the goals I've chosen.
I love this thing!
fullsizeoutput_4ade.jpeg
 
Tap said:
How's your deer numbers there, Mark?
Seems like what most of the advice above is to plant something that's deer food. Sometimes we need to prioritize our goals and it can be tough to try to develop OM when the deer eat the crap out of what we're planting. Take radish for example. Radish is a great OM builder, but if your deer are destroying it as it grows, then you won't end up with much of any tuber development and you'll have little increase in OM.
You might want to consider a mixture planting with the main variety being something that's not deer food.

I highly recommend going to the Green Cover Seed website and check-out their SmartMix calculator. It's extremely useful, even if it only gets you to think outside the box. Seems like us habitat guys get locked into thinking more about feeding and attracting deer and less about soil health. Care for your soil and your plots will be better and your herd will thank you.

For those of you who haven't tried SmartMix calculator, it allows you to enter your info of zip code, planting method, 3 goals, acreage, etc and then it allows you to choose among many seed varieties and gives a rating on how effective each variety would be for your stated goals. It also shows varieties that are not recommended for your goals. It then shows the results of your choices. It also shows cost per acre and also shipping cost to your zip code. There's even more info that shows, like frost dates, growing season length, and some other stuff. WARNING...playing with SmartMix is almost addictive:eek::)


Here's the 1st step in SmartMix. I just plugged-in some various info in order to show an example...
View attachment 10984

I did a sample mix and here's the screen shot of their recommendations.
You can see the 3 goals I chose on the right side of the chart. The scale at the top shows the different aspects of the varieties chosen. Those scales will readjust as you plug-in or remove different varieties.
Here are the results that the calculator came up with. The varieties that I chose (on the left) are picked from a drop-down chart. There will be dozens of varieties to choose from and each will show a rating...in this case, Sunn Hemp is rated 86.5 out of 100 toward the goals I've chosen.
I love this thing!
View attachment 10983
Click to expand...
Damn it Tap, I don't need more cool stuff taking up my time! Now you've got me playing with this and it's telling me I've been doing it all wrong. Got to rethink my plans. :)
 
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catscratch said:
Damn it Tap, I don't need more cool stuff taking up my time! Now you've got me playing with this and it's telling me I've been doing it all wrong. Got to rethink my plans. :)
Click to expand...
"Wrong" is a relative term.
But SmartMix sure opened my eyes to other possibilities for varieties to plant.
And it ain't buck on the Bag stuff, either.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
 
That's what it did for me; offered a bunch of stuff that I hadn't thought about and told me that some of what I am planting isn't recommended very highly. No BOB for me, I order everything from the CO-OP and mix accordingly.

What does the number next to the species represent?

It's nice that it calculates your mix for you and how much of each you need to plant. I like that!
 
I've been playing with this for several months now. I get a seed mix idea and go plug it in. Last weekend I got to thinking about the plots at the lease and what to do with them. I chose the plants already there and then added others on top to see what results it gave. I am thinking I may just overseed with chicory, buckwheat and maybe a little alfalfa(maybe). Our plots at the lease are to small to plant beans in, so I am hoping that this last mix I thought of will keep food on the table and help the soil.
 
catscratch said:
What does the number next to the species represent?
Click to expand...

The number is how they rank it as being suitable for the goals you've stated.
You'll notice the varieties in the "marginal" potion are progressively lower and there aren't any numbers in the "not recommended" section.

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Tap said:
The number is how they rank it as being suitable for the goals you've stated.
You'll notice the varieties in the "marginal" potion are progressively lower and there aren't any numbers in the "not recommended" section.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
I saw the progressive lower rankings, just didn't know if they had a meaning other than a comparison of each other.
Thanks.
 
Man that is a cool site !! Can't wait to get a chance to sit down and tinker on it !!

Relatively low deer densities on their land. They own 47 acres and usually have about 6 deer on it throughout most of the year. The planted area would be about 300 yards away from a nice size Ag field, so I don't think it will get a lot of pressure. That is my goal though, but may have to be a sidebar for a few years until I get some OM built up. I'd love to have a situation where most evenings in the summer they can see a few deer or turkeys feeding in it for their viewing pleasure :)
 
I'm curious as to the % organic matter you guys are starting with? I know this thread was started due to sandy soil, but I'm working with clay and rocky soil. The end game is the same as my clay needed organic matter in it just the same, but I will have a different battle to fight than you sand guys. I will probably have different results for my efforts than you guys too. My last soil test showed 7.8% organic. In my mind that is great! But, if you dig more than a few inches down it turns to clay real quick. I need to either build more on top or grow deeper roots. Lack of water absorption, compaction issues, drought and cracking are the things I try to counter when picking plants for crops.
 
A lot of guys would kill for 7.8%. Mine is between 5 and 7... It depends on which plot I test.
 
catscratch said:
I'm curious as to the % organic matter you guys are starting with? I know this thread was started due to sandy soil, but I'm working with clay and rocky soil. The end game is the same as my clay needed organic matter in it just the same, but I will have a different battle to fight than you sand guys. I will probably have different results for my efforts than you guys too. My last soil test showed 7.8% organic. In my mind that is great! But, if you dig more than a few inches down it turns to clay real quick. I need to either build more on top or grow deeper roots. Lack of water absorption, compaction issues, drought and cracking are the things I try to counter when picking plants for crops.
Click to expand...

With clay type soils having plentiful root structure that continually regrows and replaces is at the highest. Also tillage in these type is soils is an absolute no no, except for some of the deep tillage options where the soils are only lifted from the bottom (deep shank ripper on thin shank with a wide winged blade). Tillage in upper soil profile if disturbed will settle back together and block off the routs for air and water infiltration. This will lead to even more cracking when moisture is limited as the soil may not be able to absorb at its max amount. Another thing to watch is MG levels and base saturations as at times more adjusting can be accomplished by someone who understands these values and how they are effected in your specific soil types.

You also say it is rocky which begs to ask how deep the rocks are and if water is able to perculate straight down or if there are natural blockages where hydraulic pressures make water move in a strange way within the soils.

Plants, there is a video on cover crops and specifically radish I watched where they went during the fall to a field where radish were planted. They did a spade test where they tested the amount of force necessary to push the spade into the soil in different locations. Close to the growing radish the pressures on the soil created an area in a radius where the shovel would enter the ground easily. In areas away from the radish the subject stood on the spade and still did not penetrate the ground very far.

Like any other soil there are management goals and sometimes it sounds counterintuitive if following practices to reach a goal.


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These plots have never seen a disk or plow. Heaviest thing ever on them has been a lawnmower. I plant a lot of crops for residue coverage and plant strictly throw-n-mow. Tillage radishes are a staple in my fall rotation. I credit my good numbers somewhat with my practices, and mostly with what nature provided with deep rooted native grasses and early succession plants that I let cycle through from time to time.
 
Hey Catscratch, I am in northern Michigan, sandy, and my average OM is 2%.
For everybody, on this page is a downloadable .pdf, on building soils. I have read yields for different crops, but not so much on roots. Here is some info:
Estimated Root Residue Produced by Crops
Crop Estimated Root Residues (lbs/acre)
Native prairie 15,000–30,000
Italian ryegrass 2,600–4,500
Winter cereal 1,500–2,600
Red clover 2,200–2,600
Spring cereal 1,300–1,800
Corn 3,000–4,000
Soybeans 500–1,000
Cotton 500–900
Potatoes 300–600
 
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